Poya Osgouei:
You have to show that the perception of your little shitty startup is significantly better than it actually is.
Pouyan Salehi:
Basically what I hear you saying, Poya, is marketing is what matters, not sales.
Ross Pomerantz:
All right, well, welcome ladies and gentlemen, friends and foes to Beyond Quota. My name is Ross Pomerantz, otherwise known as "Corporate Bro". I am joined by my cohost Pouyan. And Pouyan, you feel free to say your last name for me? Because I'm going to butcher it and embarrass myself.
Pouyan Salehi:
No, it's all good. I think we're going in order of more complex last names, so that's why Poya's going after me. So I'm Pouyan Salehi, I'm the CEO and co-founder at Scratchpad, and we're excited to have Poya with us, whose last name I'm not going to try either.
Poya Osgouei:
Last name is Osgouei, it's after a city in Iran called Osku.
Ross Pomerantz:
We're here to talk about, honestly, how the hell to get out of sales? Most sales reps, I think, obviously Poya, you did it for a long time, and that's what we're trying to do, we're exploring the theme of how the hell do we get out from the chains, from the suffering, from the mental fatigue that comes on with doing years and years of sales. Obviously there's the greatest highs in the world, there's some very dark, dark lows.
Ross Pomerantz:
But why don't we just start by getting a quick introduction? Poya, tell us about your sales background and then lead that into how the hell you got out.
Poya Osgouei:
Was at Oracle for about 18 months. Loved it, learned a lot. And then I dove into startup.
Pouyan Salehi:
Did you love it?
Poya Osgouei:
Yeah, a lot of people didn't and I did. I loved Oracle. Let's talk about why people don't like Oracle.
Pouyan Salehi:
This is a safe space.
Ross Pomerantz:
It is a safe space.
Poya Osgouei:
It is a safe space.
Pouyan Salehi:
Let's talk about the reason why you liked Oracle.
Poya Osgouei:
So the reason I liked Oracle is I got lucky with my territory, and the product I was selling at that time was ERP and HR, which at that time was a huge focus, meaning you had a huge multiplier for any deal you closed. And given that I had in Northern California, I got the best of both worlds. I was an inside sales rep, but I also could go visit customers.
Poya Osgouei:
Another reason I really liked Oracle, is it because you get so much diversity. I was supporting, at that time, three different field sales teams. And what was funny is one of them was really bad, one of them was medium, and one of them was through the roof good. So you got to see diversity in terms of what made somebody successful, and you can frankly take really good traits of each people and replicate the good from all three.
Poya Osgouei:
I jumped ship into startup plan, and I became the first sales rep at a company called HackerRank. And that's for the most part, what I've been doing, and going back to your question, how did I escape sales? I moved over to consulting, but what I do now as a consultant, frankly, is I'm an AE for multiple different companies at the same time.
Poya Osgouei:
So if anything, yes, I got out of sales, but I'm pretty much doing sales now for three or four different companies at a time. So imagine not only having one sales job, but having three different sales jobs with three different quotas at any given time. That's fun.
Pouyan Salehi:
So many questions in that, I don't even know where to start. I'm still stuck on the fact that you said you really enjoyed Oracle. We'll have to dig into that later, because I'll be honest, I still don't fully believe you, but hey we'll take your word for it.
Ross Pomerantz:
You loved it so much, you were there, says a year and seven months.
Poya Osgouei:
That's triple the average, the average person had a class of six months.
Ross Pomerantz:
They expect 70% attrition in that first year in the class. They turn them and burn them. They are in and out, like one day you show up and half the desks are empty and you're like, "what happened?" Just kidding. I know what happened.
Pouyan Salehi:
So Poya, when did you know that it was time to move on? Not just from Oracle, but from traditional sales.
Poya Osgouei:
Yeah, the last company where I was full time and it was called Automile. It's out there. Right? People if they wanted to search and what happened at Automile, I joined pre-seed, right? And I joined on the recommendation of my old boss, Don. I follow along. I've always been very loyal. I trust the same group of people.
Poya Osgouei:
For Automile, we scaled that business really, really quickly. Within 18 months we took it from a million to 10 million. I think I had a huge part as part of that process.
Poya Osgouei:
Fast forward, two weeks later, we saw a new executive come in. They were in Utah. And without telling people like, "Hey"...
Pouyan Salehi:
What is it about Utah?
Poya Osgouei:
Nothing against Utah. But because of our sales cycle and variables, the team had made the decision to kind of move to Utah. Right? And rightly so. It is what it is. Right?
Poya Osgouei:
But at that point, I'm like, "okay, I'm kind of done doing this... helping this company". And this was the second time I had done it. I had done in HackerRank, going from a million to 10. And in some ways... I made money, right? Don't get me wrong. But not leaving on good terms in some ways that I was like, I might as well just go. If I like the 1 to 10 cycle, I might as well go do it for three or four different companies. Taking a company from like initial traction and making it a little repeatable, I really, really enjoyed that phase. And that's what I'm good at.
Pouyan Salehi:
For someone who try to make that decision now. Right? Or somebody who is who's at Oracle and listening. What's one thing you learned from there that you're, you're actually applying right now?
Poya Osgouei:
The biggest thing I think I've learned at Oracle is the importance of brand building, and the perception that you're significantly more important than you actually are, right? For good or bad, you ask the average person, they think really, really highly of Oracle. And they have probably no freaking idea what they're doing.
Poya Osgouei:
But because they have, they've spent so much money on their little... I forgot what they did back in the day with the racing Larry Ellison's boats or whatever. America's Cup. Yeah. Those little things that they look significantly better. Right?
Poya Osgouei:
And one of the lessons I took from Oracle, even if you're at a startup, you have to show that the perception of your little startup is significantly better than it actually is.
Pouyan Salehi:
Basically what I hear you saying is a marketing is what matters, not sales.
Poya Osgouei:
Here's the tough part. I think if you're a really good salesperson, you can convert even the shittiest leads. I don't know if that the reverse is also true. All the time.
Pouyan Salehi:
It's not. I can tell you. Have you met a marketer who can close?
Pouyan Salehi:
Take your time. It's going to take a while.
Poya Osgouei:
It's going to take a while. The only one I can think of is Sky running a corporate breath, in true sense. In some ways he has some marketing.
Pouyan Salehi:
I've never heard of that in my life. I'll have to check in on that team and make sure they're as lean as possible. Because if there's a marketer on that team, we're going to have to shave some costs.
Pouyan Salehi:
There's so many ICs out there, new reps that are just like, "I'm just a number, I don't mean shit. I could just get fired today and no one would care. It's whatever." How do you find that self-worth?
Poya Osgouei:
What's worth for me, frankly, is I've worked for the same three or four people. Right? I think the number one thing you need to have is trust, right? So I've had the same four or five bosses, people I report to that help pay my check. Right? Consistently. It's been Jason Lumpkin, Brendan Cassidy, Donner, right?
Poya Osgouei:
And the reason I go time after time... Sales is already fucking hard. Right? And you want to make sure whoever's supporting you and has your back, they have your back and you have their back. And I think that is so, so, so important that you will go through the door and they will do the same for you. Right?
Poya Osgouei:
Because you need to go fight and get that deal for them because it's their quota that you're helping like me and as well as you. But you also got to make sure, if push come to shove and you want to get that extra spit for something that they do the same for you in return.
Pouyan Salehi:
How did you know that they were a good manager? How did you build that trust?
Poya Osgouei:
I think at the beginning, you got to prove your value, right? And how do you do that? You just consistently start hitting one or two things. And frankly, if a manager or a VP doesn't realize that you're worth and they let you go, if you're consistently hitting quota, you're doing what they're asking you to do, then you don't want to work for that person anyway. Right?
Poya Osgouei:
The best revenue leaders, Brendan Cassidy comes to mind right away. That guys had like 20 people under him that have gone on to become CROs are VPs of sales are very, very successful in some cases, CEOs. Right? And the reason for that is, it's a give and a take, right? Anytime he's provided value, those team members have provided value in return.
Ross Pomerantz:
What are your days look like now? You talked about, you still have kind of three quotas, but obviously the theme of what we're doing is how do we get out of that? I mean, obviously you quotas are the ones you choose. The life you have is the one you've chosen, which I think is mainly what we're talking about here is not necessarily get away from quota. If that's what you like. So what are your days look like?
Poya Osgouei:
Going back to point, one of the reasons I've chosen this three companies at a given time, I don't have to be desperate. Right? So sometimes when you don't want a sales role is because you're desperate to hit that quota. You don't have enough pipeline. Right? That's not the case for me, because most of my money comes from variable. Right? So in other words, I don't even have a base salary. So I only benefit if I'm actually closing. Right?
Poya Osgouei:
So why do I say that? Or why do I bring this up? I get to choose who I want to work with, which is, I think awesome. Right? But now I have three different avenues to make sure that happens, right? So I'm giving myself more leverage. And I personally think long-term, in 20, 30 years from now, we may actually see more and more of sales be this way. I could become the event sponsorship guru, right?
Poya Osgouei:
And companies can come to me, "Hey, here's our event plan, which events do you recommend?" Right? And I get to do what's right for the client and not the reverse. Something along those lines I would not be surprised if like B to B moves in that direction.
Poya Osgouei:
In terms of what do my days look like? I think you need to be really, really organized. So three days a week, I am at Saster and one day is for another client, one day isn't for another client. And you really, really, really need to be strict.
Poya Osgouei:
The tough part, I think in a virtual world, those lines have blurred a little. The reason I like that rule of these three days are for one client, this other day is for another client, is that context switching that has doesn't happen. And I think where it gets taxing is that context switching where one hour, you're talking about one company, then the next hour you're talking about one other company.
Poya Osgouei:
That's, that's what it becomes, in my opinion, the most frustrating part about the experience, because it's too taxing, at least for me, for my brain power.
Poya Osgouei:
And the only other thing I wanted to say is, I know I'm sitting here and I'm making it easy, but I've had a lot, a lot of frustrating days and I still do, right? There are times like, where I lose sleep over a deal loss, or how am I going to hit my quota here and there. I think it's really, really normal to have those things. And you all, I think everybody listening to this, you need to also have your balance on how you get rid of that stress. Right?
Ross Pomerantz:
You said mentioning, having tough days. Tell us about one.
Poya Osgouei:
If anybody knows anything about Oracle, or bigger companies, once you commit a deal, you better close that deal. There was one deal specifically where it was us against a company called John Fight. It was for applicant tracking system. And it was for Teleo.
Poya Osgouei:
And this freaking customer kept saying, "it's you guys, don't worry. We'll get the sign. I don't know why the CFO's holding it on and on and on and on." And the thing we used to do at Oracle back in the day, when you had a legitimate customer that had a lot of potential, you could take him in 2012, 2013, you could take them to Oracle arena. Because tickets weren't that cheap. You could give them the red carpet experience. And we rented this club or suite at Oracle, right? And we told the customer, "Hey, do you and your team want to go? And we can celebrate, us signing our partnership by celebrating at the Oracle arena."
Poya Osgouei:
So he's like, "yeah, absolutely." And we got buses for them. And we literally gave him the red carpet experience. And he's like, "I will get this contract signed the day we do the Oracle arena, so we can sweat. For whatever reason, we take him out, we enjoy this party. We have a great experience. We paid for everything. And for whatever reason, the contract wasn't signed and this buyer was like, "don't worry on Monday, come Monday. This will be signed."
Poya Osgouei:
And then we go, Sky comes and his team comes, completely shit faced. They were so drunk, which is already a huge red flag because the Oracle event management team was there. And this was a small event. It's like 20 people. And half the people were from this one company. But we're like, "don't worry. There's so much potential in this account. Don't worry. We got this." Come Monday. This guy's like, "Hey guys, I have some bad news. Can we jump on a call?" And we jump on a call at like 9:00 AM. And he tells me, "oh, our CFO, without telling me, decided to sign this contract with Java".
Poya Osgouei:
And we're like, "oh my God, holy shit." And this was a week before Oracle was about to close its books for the year. It's May. That to this day is probably the most painful moment I've had. Because I had to call like six different VPs and be like, "Hey, remember that deal? Please take it off of your forecast".
Ross Pomerantz:
What we are trying to do with all of our guests, we're going to ask everybody what their go-to pump-up song is. And over time we're going to build... I've got another question for that, but we're trying to build a list of kind of those pump-up songs. Mine is obviously any song from the soundtrack. But what would your song be? Your pump up song before going to close the biggest deal of your life.
Poya Osgouei:
To this day, that 8 Mile song, the album is exactly what I love. So Lose Yourself is probably what I'm going to go with. Close second, and I know this sounds cheesy because every single time I bring it up, my partner absolutely hates me for it. In Da Club by 50 Cent. Those are the two songs.
Pouyan Salehi:
I'd try it. Why not?
Ross Pomerantz:
I'm going to ask the follow-up question then. What's your recovery song?
Pouyan Salehi:
You're standing the big stall. You're sobbing. You're sniffling, people are like, "sounds like a sad opera singer in there", but it's you.
Poya Osgouei:
I think Neo is a great song. Another song that just gets me going, I know that sounds cheesy, but it was just my high school song is Umbrella by Rihanna and Jay-Z. Yeah.
Pouyan Salehi:
Okay. We'll add that. We'll have two playlists. We'll have the hype song and then the recovery one.
Ross Pomerantz:
But really quick before we let you go, where can people find you? What's the name of your podcasts? If people wanted to connect with you, what's the best way to do it?
Poya Osgouei:
Pouyan knows this. I try being very, very accessible and pay it forward in any way I can. So the podcast is Uncharted Podcast. We'd like to showcase the human side of the next generation of tech leaders. In terms of hitting me up, I think LinkedIn is probably the best way, Poya Osgouei. I think if you put in POYA, I'll be the first to come.
Pouyan Salehi:
It was an honor to have you here. Hopefully we'll get you on again.
