Ross Pomerantz a.k.a. Corporate Bro
They're just like trying to pick new words that sound more and more important, so they're gonna be like, it's gonna be like, co ops. We were just saying,
Pouyan Salehi
I think we need to do a separate session called the Ross on ops. Yeah,
Janesh Rahlan
Yeah, I just want him to alienate every ops team in the valley.
Pouyan
I'll be honest, I still don't fully believe here. But hey, we'll take your word for it. That's some royalty free shit. That's
Awesome. We're back. I'm Pouyan from Scratchpad. We've got Corp
Ross
From Corp.
Pouyan
And the mandatory pause that I always give after saying that. Yeah, to help the ego on that side. Take it take it in. I'm so excited for Janesh to join us today.
Janesh
Yeah thank you.
Pouyan
I'm stuck on what to say because your shit's so funny. Like I watching it -
Ross
Finally some real comedy on this pod.
Pouyan
Yeah, I'm like, I kind of want to just talk about that instead of anything related to sales. But listen, they're one in the same maybe?
Ross
Comedy, tragedy, sales sadness, it's all disgusting, horrible, intertwined -
Janesh
Dude, it's pretty much the same skill set. It's the same skill set. With obviously certain things here and there. But yeah.
Ross
But I want to hear about this deterioration from how you become a Fulbright scholar, and then just really just fuck it all up and end up in sales. You know?
Pouyan
And stop in product along the way. So many folks want to make the other journey like, Oh, I'm in sales, and I want to like, get to product and have a seat at the table.
Ross
He just wants to hurt.
Janesh
Dude, I keep like... every move. It feels like I like get the thing to know I can get it. And then I pull the rug from under my parents. Because it's like in college I was a biochemistry major for two years. And then I was like, Yeah, this shit's boring. And then I move over to econ and poli-sci and I interned at Goldman Sachs. And I got the return offer and just had zero desire to go back and instead went to teach English in Turkey under the State Department. And the pay drop off was significant, to say the least. And my parents were just like, bro, what are you doing right now? And then I like got into these orgs and moved into sales and now doing comedy. It's I don't know, man. I think it's just about like having fun. Right? Like knowing you can do it but then chasing the thing you truly love and want to do.
Ross
Yeah but you know you sold LinkedIn Sales solutions. I mean, people need Sales Navigator! Think about all the sales teams you've enabled through that life-changing tool. Don't they get it? When you show them sales nav and the power?!
Janesh
You know what? I love Ross bringing the heat as a fucking Glass Door Alum. Because I think -
Ross
Oh my god.
Pouyan
Thank you for calling that out.
Ross
Oh my god dude. I have so much to say. I got a lot to say on my former employer. I got a lot to say about that shit. F**kin, a small child with limited working English proficiency could have sold Glassdoor. I'm just gonna say it. It ain't hard. It was my literal job.
Pouyan
Did you consider going into RevOps instead Ross?
Ross
RevOps was not was not a hot thing at the time. It was not even a real thing at the time. So no. CSMs were becoming hot right around then.
Janesh
Wait, you you went to B School. And now you you do content full time, right?
Ross
No, no, I've just I just, you know, I just wanted to hear your version of how it all went to shit. I got my own version, too. But this is about you. This isn't about me.
Janesh
No, I mean, listen, I have known since I was 17. I wanted to do Stand Up. Like that was my thing. But it was just a whole like immigrant story, right? You come to the U.S. You try to get stability. You want the resume all of that and kind of do I wish I started Stand Up earlier? Like, absolutely. But all the like life experiences and stuff I was able to do before gave me such a cushion when I took the leap and started doing stand up and made me feel so much more comfortable. And also the other thing is dude, like, having worked a professional job, like so much of entertainment is the business side, right? Like, you know, this like being funny is 30% maybe 40% of it. But the rest of it is can you be a professional? Can you reach out to people be accountable for stuff? Can you show up?
Ross
No, and it's amazing the amount of like, whatever companies, agencies that I'll work with, and like Wow, thank you for like getting this back. On our deadline. I'm like, yeah, it was a deadline. Yeah, I was stressing about it. But we had a deadline I have to get it done. Like there's a choice? So many people just like aren't responding and they just kind of let it go and we got to chase them. I'm like, Okay, did not know that that was even an option? Not that I would ever do that because, you know, I'm gonna turn my homework in on time. It may be shitty. But I'm gonna turn it in on time. So it's true. I do think there's a lot behind the scenes that a lot of creators, comics, they don't appreciate or do. And maybe that is from the professional side.
Janesh
Yeah, I think so. And now also being in sales helps man. Just that constant rejection and having to go back. It's the same thing with Stand Up. And so that's why I was saying a lot of the skill sets align. It's kind of like you're selling an idea on stage. A lot of times people might not buy it so you got to figure out how to get them to buy the idea you want them to consume. So you can buy a Porsche 911.
Pouyan
You started in product and Biz Ops, and then you found your way into sales. And then you stayed in sales. That usually doesn't happen and that's why it's interesting. I think it's almost the inverse that we've seen is starting off in sales and then trying to find some way out of it and use it as a launching pad. So maybe talk to us about that a bit.
Janesh
I think a lot of people end up starting off in sales, because they don't know exactly what they want to do. But they want to end up in like "business," right? They just have this like idea of like, I'm gonna go work at a company, here, the jobs that are available. And so I don't know what to do so I'll like figure out my way. And they end up in sales, but they don't fully understand the business. And I think that's what actually helped me a lot is like, because I had a bit more of a technical background, I was able to end up on the Biz Ops and product side. So I got to really understand like how a SaaS business is built and run. And I was so lucky with my timing more than anything else. I was like, right place, right time, like 2015, LinkedIn. That's when Biz Ops at LinkedIn was like, one of the hottest things in the valley. Like I remember when Jeff Weiner came out and he's like, if I started my career today, it would be in Biz Ops, and like, all this stuff around it.
Pouyan
What is Biz Ops?
Janesh
That's a great question, Ross, how do you feel about ops? Do you wanna explain?
Ross
No, Biz Ops was also like a super hot term, and now no one's talking about it. Now they're like, Sh*t, "Biz" wasn't strong enough. What's what's better than... Revenue's important! Woah woah holy sh*t let's call it RevOps!!! It's not Biz Ops anymore! They're just trying to pick new words that sound more and more important, so one day they're gonna be like, CEO-Ops.
Pouyan
Janesh we were just saying, I think we need to do a separate session called Ross on Ops. The evolution of Ops' role.
Janesh
I just want him to alienate every Ops team in the valley. But no, so Biz Ops is historically different. So Biz Ops as a question is trying to answer, or at least I'll tell you the way it was structured at LinkedIn, like there was Sales Biz Ops, Product Biz Ops, right? Again, lucky with my timing, I was fortunate enough to do both Sales Biz Ops, which is asking the question of, Hey, we're at 1 billion revenue this year, how do we get to 5 billion in revenue in the next five years? Right? It's like, here's our solution. Let's reverse engineer, what are the levers to get there? Does that mean opening up new markets? Does that mean trying to offer new products, etc? Then Product Biz Ops, similarly is, how do we get click through rates at X or engagement at Y? So again, coming with the solution, reverse engineering. How do we get there based on what levers we have today? So it requires you to basically get a really thorough understanding of, how's this business run? What are the things that generate revenue? What are the things that generate engagement? And how do we pump those numbers up? In the words of Matthew McConaughey, like, those are rookie numbers, right? We got to pump those numbers up. And so that's kind of what Biz Ops is -
Pouyan
From where I'm sitting a billion is... A billion is not a rookie number. That's the like...
Janesh
No, no, I get that man.
Ross
That's a good number.
Janesh
Yeah billions are great number. Obviously, like that question you're asking at LinkedIn in '08 was very different than in 2015. Which is very different from 2022, which is a whole different number. Like these were pie in the sky numbers for us back then that now the company is just pumping out.
Ross
Yeah they're doing alright.
Janesh
Yeah, they're chillin. But no, it was it was understanding the business. But then the company started to grow bigger so I got less responsibility later on. And then I also started doing Stand Up so I wanted more control over my schedule. And if I'm getting an email from a product manager at like, 8pm, being like, hey, this thing we got to figure it out, I have to respond to it. Whereas in sales, it's kind of like, I hit this number. You leave me alone. Like that's what I got to do.
Ross
Later nerds.
Janesh
Yeah, that's exactly it. And the first quarter was definitely rocky for me in sales. But once I figured out, you can use the business acumen and like really understand what a customer's needs are, it helps. And then I also got better in sales as a result of Stand Up by just being human with them. Like clients would find my stuff online and be like, I love this. And this tension that was between us as a client-seller relationship just became like homies trying to help each other with business needs.
Pouyan
You just nailed I think one of the most important parts that I've learned in sales. Which is that tension piece that exists where you're seen as the salesperson. And so defense walls are up, I'm not going to share this information with you but it's like well, I gotta qualify you... And you just said it in such a brilliantly simple way. Now I don't know if the answer is for everyone to become a comedian and then send their sh*t over to to clients, but how else did you do that? Or how else would you advise others to do that [and] remove that wall? It's like, hey, let's just chat. I'm here to help. Even though I do have a quota to hit. I'm trying to try to hit that and you've got the money that they will help me get there.
Janesh
Yeah, I think the wall is trust, right? That wall is like, Hey, I don't trust you enough yet to do XYZ thing with you or share this information. So it comes down to how are you going to establish trust? And it goes back to: be a human and also solve for their needs. Like don't be so aggressive in trying to close the deal immediately. I know some people who are trying to share pricing in the first 10 minutes and it's like, Yo! Pump the brakes! Let's figure out what's pissing them off day-in, day-out at work? How are you going to solve the thing that's pissing them off? And how do you get them to just talk to you about their life? And that wall is literally like, how do I establish trust? And it just comes down to like, be human. Be chill. Talk to them the way you would talk to your friends.
Ross
Everyone's always like, what's your advice? And it's literally just be fucking human. Be authentic and in your own, whatever your voice is.
Pouyan
This is such - I'm trying to find the right words to say here because I'm like, Yes! I'm so fired up by what you're saying. And I feel like, in my experience, it's been so many salespeople need structure. They need to know how the call's going to go. They need a plan. And that's kind of what a deck does. It's like that blanket to say, Okay, well I'll just get to these things. And what I've learned is some of the best calls are the ones you can't prepare for. And so how do you get yourself into a position where you can go into a conversation that just picks up and you're not ready for it, but like, you still handle it. I think the rock in the river is a great example of that. Ross's gardens another example of that, but like, how do you become great at just taking what's coming at you processing it, and then following up and then letting it evolve? Instead of saying I needed to go down this specific path? And that, by the way, that is relevant for being a founder of a company or starting anything. I think that skill set alone is, is what will get you further than anything else.
Janesh
I mean, dude, I think it's one, at-bats, right? At the sake of sounding so corny, it's like that Malcolm Gladwell 10,000 hours thing of just the more you do something, the more you get comfortable with it. I think that's one piece. I think the other piece is like, just being resilient with it. And what that means is like if you get rejected or you feel a rejection coming on, you got to brush it off. Do the Jordan shrug and you move on, and you figure out. Alright, how do I how do I get them next quarter or next call etc? So I think those two - like not accepting that defeat or being like, Alright, I got hit down. But I got back up and being able to reference all these different times you did this. And I think for you as a founder it's probably like you have a thesis, right? There's a reason you started Scratchpad. And there's a reason you dedicated so much of your life to doing this. Gearing up to do it. Because you had you had your company that got bought before this, right?
Pouyan
Yeah.
Janesh
And so you could have chilled but you're an entrepreneur and you're like I see an opportunity. I'm going to go after it and chipping away. You started when market conditions were sweet and then COVID happens and you're like, oh my god, what am I going to do now? And then you gear back up and it's the hottest boom we've ever seen. And now everyone's getting their sh*t kicked in. But you have the reason you started this and the thing you believe in and I think as long as that conviction doesn't change, I think you keep going, right? And that's why I think it's so important to sell a product you believe in because then you have that conviction of like, oh, there's a reason I'm doing that. So even if that person doesn't see my vision today, they're gonna see it eventually. That played a huge role for me when I was leaving LinkedIn because I had been there for so long and there was so much happening in the market at that time, but I was searching for a product where I have the most conviction. Where I really see the benefit for this, which is how I ended up at Scribe. I was like I love this thing and I believe in this thing. And I think even now with market conditions being what they are and us being a pretty early stage company that a lot of people haven't heard of, it's kind of like, how do I convince you to sign a multi year contract for something that's not proven?
Pouyan
I guess my perspective on it is, I think passion is a little overrated.
Janesh
Okay.
Pouyan
For the product that you're selling, right? Because I think knowing your why is really important, that piece I get. I mean... building anything is really hard. Whether that's your own brand, whether that's a new career, whether that's a product - like going from zero to one on anything, I just have so much respect for anyone that does that. You've done it. Ross has done it. A bunch of people have done it as well. But you know, like, you know, the pain that comes with that. And I think one thing that's helped me do this over the years is just knowing the why. And it's never been about any one product, though. Because I think being excited about the problem you're solving. It's a couple of layers below the product. And both my co-founder and I experienced this because the first - I don't even like - I can't even call the thing a company. Like we built a product it was, it got nowhere, we spent nine months of our lives on it. But we were serving SMBs.
Janesh
Yep.
Pouyan
And after nine months, and it was like a grueling sale. And like, we thought we had a pretty elegant, pretty cool product, like people liked it. But we just kind of looked at each other one day and were like, Man, are you like... are you enjoying this? And it was kind of this realization where... we don't really care. And we cared about it, we could make ourselves excited about it. But we didn't care about the fundamental problem we were solving, like, we didn't get fired up about the people we were solving it for. So I think having some sort of connection to the people that have this problem and that you are focused on solving that problem that whatever the product might look like, because that evolves over time. But that's the one thing that like, has helped me and I think for a lot of folks I've talked to that are thinking about like what they do next and where they go. I always say Listen, are you excited about waking up every single day thinking about the problem that those people have and the world that might exist if you do solve it for them in some way?
Janesh
Yeah. Yeah. I agree with that. I think that's a fair way to characterize it.
Pouyan
I mean, so you're at LinkedIn for a long time.
Janesh
Yeah... Is the question why?
Pouyan
I'm just gonna let it sit.
Ross
No those were good years to be a LinkedIn. Yeah, good years to be at LinkedIn.
Janesh
Most of them were great years. And here's the thing, before someone at LinkedIn sees this and says, he wasn't grateful! I'm so grateful for the time that I had there. But I've watched the culture change like three different times. And for someone who's a little more type A and driven and also kind of wants a little more ownership. It was no longer the place for someone like me for like, I would say the last two years of it. It became very admin-task-heavy and that also again-
Ross
It's complacency city. Sorry. It literally is. I'm sorry it is. People ask me about LinkedIn, Glassdoor. Same shit. You want a nice little comfortable little thing that you're doing. You got your little tasks, you get to go workout in the middle of the day, if you want to free lunch and all that stuff... great! But how much of an impact are you making? How much ownership of anything do you actually have? And like, if you don't get that you're not feeling stimulated intellectually or pushed or growth, then you should leave. And that's what I tell everybody anyway, like, if you don't feel that. Some people want that! That's what you want to do. It's a great place to go honestly pursue something on the side as well. Like Glassdoor helped me and allowed me - it gave me space to do Corporate Bro. And they were cool with it. And they knew like if I did my sh*t, I could do Corporate Bro. And I'm again, I'm grateful for that. Do I think the product was like sick and like difficult to sell? No, not at all. But the situation was great for me. And the people I was with were awesome. And it was fun. But eventually I got sick of it. It wasn't doing it for me anymore. So I left.
Janesh
Yeah, and that's exactly kind of what happened. There was a lot of inertia, I almost left like three times before I actually ended up leaving. And then when I left actually left without a job. I just quit. I was like I don't want to do this anymore, I'm going to clear my head, I'm going to figure it out. But I am so grateful for the opportunities it gave me. It also gave me a lot of corporate Stand Up gigs. I ended up doing so much corporate work for LinkedIn, which then ended up transpiring into corporate work for other companies. Dude I had a client hire me to do their sales kickoff one time. That was really like, this has to be a conflict of interest, right? Because I'm like, literally selling software to you and doing your sales kickoff? But they were like ehh we'll just Venmo you whatever your fee is and come do this. But all of that came as a result of being there. And I got to learn from really, really sharp people, but it's... to Ross's point, there comes a point where you have to decide what's important to you. If I'm like, 35 or something and having two kids and just want to make six figures and spend time with my kids. All of the fang companies are a perfect place to be.
Ross
How do you see comedy shaping up now? How have you seen it change? Has it affected you and the things that you say or do?
Janesh
I mean, it's such a great question. And like, I don't know how to describe this as... it's not a loaded question at all, by any means, because I think it's so important to address. But there's so much behind what you're asking. I think one is yes, comedy is definitely more challenging now. But I think at the end of the day, as long as what you're saying is funny and can make people laugh... that's where the joke lies. You can make fun of any subject. Anyone who tells you like, oh, you can't talk about this anymore, can't talk about that, it's like, that's not true. You're just not doing it in a way that's funny. You're just doing it in a way that's attacking people and "edgy." And especially a lot of older comics, it's like, dude, just say you're old, you don't get it, move on. You're a 60 year old dude who just doesn't understand this type of person. Just say, I don't understand them. It makes me uncomfortable. But here's my take. Just say that! You don't need to be like, let me take them down like this. At the end of the day, I think we're being more accountable for people's feelings, right? You have the freedom to say whatever you want, but that doesn't mean it's freedom of consequence. That's what it is now, right? It's like people are actually getting consequence for their sh*t. I think that's important. I think you should. But I do think the internet has really messed us up because for like, 20 years, you could anonymously just say whatever you want. I think if you want to say something, especially about someone, say that sh*t with your chest. Like get rid of the anonymity. It's like very much a "Come at me bro" mentality, but if you're going to come at me, like don't have some cartoon profile picture. Let me talk to you and who you are as a person. But I think in terms of the PC-ness I think it's a challenge, right? Like, how can you be funny without just saying wild shit. And here's the thing, man, I talk about race a lot in my set. I talk about political issues. I talked about the Supreme Court Roe v Wade thing, but I spent so much time and that jokes not even there yet. I uploaded it online, but it's like, I'm still crafting that. But it's like, talk about the important things. You just got to make them funny. Like, there are ways to do it. There's a reason there's an art behind this. I just think the years where people could easily just punch down at someone like those are gone and dude, good riddance. Good riddance. I do think like, in general, people could chill out a bit and laugh at some stuff. Like there are some times where I'll tell a joke, especially in the Bay Area. And people will start gasping and it's like, Hey! Listen to what that jokes about. Because I think that's the other thing that gets lost is like people are so quick to react. They're not listening to what's he actually addressing? What's the point he's trying to make?
Ross
That's the problem for me because people don't give a sh*t. That's the thing. They don't give a sh*t. Like if I went to one of these SKOs that I speak at and I said the word "Roe-" my mic will be cut before I could even get the V. out. Like I know there's so many things I can't even touch. The amount of work that goes into them vetting me. I get cancelled gigs because of the word "bro." Like in the corporate world bro is a huge problem and you take that away all things equal, people don't give a sh*t most of the time. But like, even that word so... that's my issue is what you're saying is they're not listening for the joke. They're not A) assuming best intent. B) being like, this is comedy what is the funny here? Like, what are we really making fun of here? And C) they're making a choice before ever even getting to that point. Getting to the context. And that's my issue. And that's just how it is.
Janesh
And I get that man. Like the corporate gigs, the way they get vetted and word choice and like, I'll give you an example. I had a joke that got cut. This was one of my favorites where I did the LinkedIn SKO years ago, it was like 5000 people, right? And I had a joke where I was like, you know, this was one of my big dreams to perform in front of a crowd this size for this year. My other dream was to watch Donald Trump watching Black Panther. And it's like, it's not like anything, right? I'm letting your head go to how he's gonna react to that. But they were just like, you absolutely cannot say this because like, you know, there are some people who will support him and they'll feel a certain way. I'm like, Yeah, but I'm not making a call on like, how he would watch it. I'm just saying I want to see this unfold. And so exactly like things like that, that you can't talk about. I think what's tough with the word, bro, is the connotation, right? Like you're not an exclusionary person. Like I've seen so much of your content for years dude like and that's one thing I want to applaud because like Pouyan I'm sure you realize it but people who don't who are watching who may not realize like you know the sh*t Ross is doing the level of consistency for years day-in and day-out. That's really, really difficult and doing it across mediums doing it in a changing landscape like kudos to you man, tip of the hat.
Ross
Thanks, man.
Janesh
And you're not exclusionary right but the term bro especially in the valley, you look at places like Uber you look at places like Zenefits and the culture they built like ended up creating such a toxic environment and the word people would use was bro. So bro as a word became a conduit for this toxic environment which sucks because like, you know, you got to build a brand on Corp Bro. Which is like way funnier than like Corporate Guy. Right? Like-
Ross
Oh my god yeah, people ask me why I don't change it to Corporate Dude. Like my mom calls me that anyway because she can't remember the f*ck my name is but like this doesn't hit mom. You're a comic you know word sounds certain way there's a role there's a rhythm there's a cadence and you can't just change it like up and change it to Corporate blank. Like no. There was a point here and then the original point was to make fun of what everybody was getting pissed off about.
Janesh
Exactly!
Ross
Yeah, like that was the original point.
Pouyan
Yeah, you and I talked about this before like this wasn't Ross. This was a separate entity. Like this thing that was a reflection of what was happening in the market and in the world at that time.
Janesh
Dom Mazetti is not "Bro Science" right? Like Dom Mazetti is a different guy and Ross Pomerantz is a different guy than Corporate Bro who's a caricature!
Ross
What's Dom doing these days?
Janesh
Dom's still making content.
Ross
Is he still doing Bro Science?
Janesh
Yeah, he is it's pretty funny but it does get repetitive.
Ross
Yeah, right. Yeah, right.
Janesh
Yeah, which goes back to like, Ross you've just been hitting for years, man and it's awesome to see that.
Ross
Thanks, dude. Cuz I hate myself. I hate everything I do.
Janesh
As any humorist should. As any good humorist should just wake up every day being like, This is dog sh*t, but let's just put it out.
Ross
You got a big show coming up. You get one jam. You get one jam to play to get you pumped. Ready to absolutely beast on these nerds. Crowd work. What are you listening to?
Janesh
Oh, man, this is this is actually a great question because I have a big show coming up. I'm hosting the San Francisco Punch Line May 31st so I'll be listening to I'm Going In by Lil Wayne Drake and Young Jeezy.
Ross
And I'ma go HARD.
Janesh
Exactly. You get it.
Ross
Say you had a bad day. What are you listening to?
Janesh
I'm listening to everything I am by Kanye West.
Ross
Ohh Yeezy. Keeps coming up.
Pouyan
Alright, let's let you drop some plugs man. Where can people where can people find you? Your content? Connect with you? Whatever you want to hype.
Janesh
I'm at Janesh Rahlan across all platforms. J-A-N-E-S-H R-A-H-L-A-N. Instagram, Tik Tok, website, everything. Hit me up for whatever. Come to my shows and hit me up for whatever gigs you want. I've been doing a lot of Indian people's birthday parties lately. I think that's my demo now.
Ross
I need to get to one of those birthday dude.
Janesh
I've been I've been hard for three Indian birthday parties in like the last month so we'll see how that goes. Also, if you want to, you know if you've got documentation needs for your company and you want to buy some software. Hit up your boy for some Scribe software. We're gonna document all your processes.
