Ross Pomerantz (Corporate Bro)
Founders who are scared to pay their reps like... makes no sense. Are you worried that they're going to crush it for you? Like, like, is that what you're worried about? That they might go out and be really successful? Why is that the fear?

Brian G. Burns
It's kind of human nature. Their little mammal body's saying, I'm at a higher status than you and you're making more than me? That doesn't stick.


*Beyond Quota Intro*

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Pouyan Salehi
We are back, I'm Pouyan from Scratchpad. We've got Corp here with us as well.

Ross
Hello. I'm back.

Pouyan
I'm really excited for our guest in conversation today. We got Brian Burns, who I consider a legend. Personally, I'm a big fan. I think over the years having watched what you share and put out into the world, Brian, I've learned a lot from what you do. So I'm just excited to hear and to hear your story and things you can share with us.

Brian
Well, it's great to be here

Ross
Well, let's talk about how you went from being a nerd to being cool. I mean, going from engineering to sales, I guess is what I'm trying to say.

Brian
Well that was a lot easier than you would think. Because back in the day, they didn't have pre-salespeople. So the sales reps would just go around to the engineers. And I was the best dressed one or the one willing to travel. So they'd take me so I was the SE. And one night at dinner we were talking about, I always thought sales engineers made the most. And I quickly learned that that was not true. And I was money motivated. And they were their base salary was my target income as an engineer. And I was like, I can do what they do. I can set up a meeting and present or introduce myself, and go out there and talk about the product. So that was why I got into sales.

Pouyan
I think you're the first person I've talked to, or at least that we've had on this show that has gone from engineering to sales.

Ross
Yeah, definitely.

Pouyan
Usually it's I have no idea what I'm doing. I landed in sales. I was recruiting and ended up in sales, something else to sales. Engineering to sales is an interesting jump.

Brian
Well, I loved engineering, but you know, I liked the control over my income. Both my parents were in sales. So I knew what it was about. But at the time in Boston, the help wanted ads was 29 pages of software engineers and one page of everything else. So if you wanted a job, you can make great money. And I got addicted to it. I loved it.

Pouyan
Tell us about that transition. So you saw that you were an engineer, you're going on these trips with salespeople, you're like, wait a minute, they're making much more than I am. I think I can do this.

Brian
Well, basically one of the salespeople quit. And I went up to the VP of sales and introduced myself and said, I'd really like to apply for that opening. And like any great sales leader who doesn't want to recruit says you got it.

Ross
Someone internal, why not? Did you have like a welcome to sales moment where you're like, Oh, this isn't engineering anymore? Like, oh, this is not quite what I thought?

Brian
Well, the first hang up. Yeah, it was pretty brutal. And I was a runner, then I went and did five miles after that. I needed to, because that was pretty rude and crude. It was an awakening. But what also was different was how I got treated, right? Because I went from almost prima-donna status, where you came and went as you wished, rode my bike had a ponytail. And all of a sudden, people were telling me to cut my hair. You got to drive to work. But, you know, I tripled my income in one year. So it was a great feeling for a guy in his 20s.

Ross
Yeah, I don't know if the ponytail would have worked in face to face sales at the time, or now either.

Brian
It didn't work.

Ross
Sounds like it literally paid off. Why do you think like the modern tech world has gotten to this model of breaking all these roles down? So aggressively? Cause to me, it just seems like a cost that people can't like have some new accounts, but also like renew current customers. And I know like you want hands on but it doesn't... I don't know... It seems like we're trying to specialize things that don't necessarily need specialization all the time.

Brian
Well, it fits in some cases. I mean, because

Ross
Some cases for sure

Brian
You know the SDR role is just the renaming of what we used to call inside sales. But you know, what does everybody do? They copy the unicorn. Oh, so it works for Salesforce. It's got to work for me. There's only two differences. You're not Salesforce. And it's not 2003.

Pouyan
One of the things I've appreciated most about the content that you're putting out. And by the way, we should talk about that, because I think you were one of the early creators. And we're seeing a lot more creators now but your points are just so sharp. They are so spot on. So, how did you develop that? Like, how are you creating that content based on these points that in my opinion, I'm just like, yeah, you just hit it, you nailed it, right, right there and consistently?

Brian
I think the key is, I don't know where I heard it, but keep it to 90 seconds or less, which forces you to keep it tight. That's not a lot of time. Because a lot of people are introducing themselves telling a little bit too much of a story. So you got to grab their attention. And basically, how I learned it was trial and error. You know, it was about what 2018 That LinkedIn started video. And even the iPhones at the time, you know, didn't have image stabilization and stuff. So you had to do a lot of post-production to try and get it to look reasonable without anyone getting seasick. And then you'll read the comments over. So you can basically take a similar point and make many different videos about it from different angles. But trying to think about what's the other person or somebody, the hater gonna say about this and try and crush it preemptively.

Pouyan
Who are your biggest haters? And why?

Brian
Every sales rep in the UK hates me.

Pouyan
Really?

Brian
Well, certainly, it's tamed down. But the first two years, it was brutal. You know, just people who either they don't like how you look. They don't like how you're dressed. They don't like how you talk. Sales has this kind of almost political, religious type of tone to it. Meaning that once people get their set beliefs, they don't change. And they don't want to hear anything different. But they can't really articulate what theirs is other than a little platitude. So there's a lot in there. But there's also a lot of people who want to learn how to sell.

Pouyan
I bet you had the advantage of having been in sales before, and I want to talk about the books you've written, the methodology you develop and all of that. But in terms of creating content and putting it out there in the world, it is hard, right? Because the criticism is sharp. It's loud, and it's frequent. And we've talked to other other folks that are new to it. And it can get personal at times, and it can it can hurt

Brian
Oh, yeah.

Pouyan
But how did you deal with it?

Brian
You know, the same way that [I dealth with that] first hang up. The running helps and you can't take it personally. And if it bothers you enough, you delete and block them. But I cannot tell you it doesn't bother me. 'Course it bothers me. It's ruined many a night.

Ross
Many a night, man! It's ruined my day's when I open up and read something and it's like, Well today's a wash.

Pouyan
Brian, I'm interested to hear how you made that transition in leaving sales?

Brian
I think it's something that a lot of people face. At the time. It was about 10 years ago, I had two deaths in my family within six months. I was on my 12th startup. I had closed the biggest deal in my career. So I had the money. And I was also at that pivot point where the CRM was becoming the focus instead of the just way to keep track of the forecast. And I had a manager - I was originally hired by the CEO who was my previous manager. Then he brought somebody in between me and him and that person was a CRM Nazi. And I go as soon as I start this, I will never be able to stop it. So I never started it. Never logged into Salesforce. So I was that guy. So it was just clear, I wanted to do something else. I had a good connection at Xcel partners, he hooked me up with all his portfolio companies that weren't doing well in the b2b space. And so I had a nice little revenue stream going on. And then about five years ago, the online training stuff became usable. And all of a sudden, I saw the potential of working with individual reps who want to become great who are willing to invest their time and their money. And I could do it online. Because doing those two day workshops or six months stints are just brutal on you. You know, I thought I was going to give up cross country travel by getting out of sales and it doubled. Right? So it was basically living on a plane going back and forth. So the online training gave me the ability to really work with the people who want to become great at sales.

Pouyan
How much of a therapist are you too salespeople?

Brian
You got to be careful with that because everybody wants your opinion, but they really want you to be a therapist. They want you to hear them out. And it's like, I've got my job to do.

Ross
When did the walk and talk start? And I want to learn more about these walks like, is it catharsis? Is it just like your thing? Is it like I want some exercise? Like what created the walks?

Brian
The walk and talks came out of going walking, listening to podcasts as I walk. And I had clearly had my iPhone with me because I'm listening to a podcast. And I originally held it out with my hand and I come up with an idea or a tip and I originally just posted them on YouTube. But when LinkedIn came out with video support I was getting about 5k per tip. But one day, I go, why don't I just let my personality come out? The sarcasm and the disgruntledness, the Boston type of you know, cutting to the core of it. And I did it, I edited it up nice. And I put it on and 50,000 views. Because people we're laughing. I was making fun of the problem that I saw out there. So it was like this huge dopamine overdose. I was getting success with it. I liked it. And it was fun.

Ross 
Where do you see the future of sales here? Like what's going to be the big reckoning?

Brian
It's going to go back to skills. I think some of the companies that figure it out, quit copying what's worked 20 years ago and figure out the real core things that make it work for them. Because there is just a lot of mediocrity today. Because people are promoted too fast so they don't really know what works. So they do what they know. And what they know is counting activities. Instead of trying to unravel the mystery of how to sell this product. Because that's what I did as a sales rep.

Pouyan
Where do you stand on getting paid for the results?

Brian
The idea of taking reps off a commission is crazy. Then they're basically service reps. They're not sales reps. If you want people to be emotionally engaged in winning, they have to have a reason. The more I get paid, the harder I work

Ross
It all seems like it's wired to ultimately create the churn and burn mentality.

Brian
It gets diluted because the sales leader usually comes up with something good. He goes to sales ops and they go, Well, that's too generous.

Ross
Yeah they might, they might actually hit this. And then we got to pay them this.

Brian
Yeah. And what happens if they get a bluebird? It's like, okay, that happens. What happens if they hit a bus? Okay, good things or bad things happen. Then it goes to finance and then finance does all the what ifs and say, Look, we can hire one more if we cut this. And then it goes down that spiral.

Ross 
Founders who are scared to pay their reps makes no sense. Are you worried that they're going to crush it for you? Like, is that what you're worried about? That they might go out and be really successful? Like, why is that the fear?

Brian
It's kind of human nature. Because their little mammal body's saying, I'm at a higher status than you and you're making more than me? That doesn't stick.

Pouyan
Oh, listen, I've been beating on this drum for a while. It's something that I also see in other founders, CEOs and I just never understood it. Like I tell my team, you should be making a lot more than I am. And we actually put pretty generous accelerators in place. And we commit to them. We stay to them. I see this much more as - and maybe it's just in the way that we sell or the way like - it's a very aligned sale. It's rarely one person that's just on their own and selling. It really does take an entire team to do what we do. But it's so counterintuitive to me to not want somebody to succeed. It's why you hired them. It's why you're building the team. And you decided to do the 50/50 split OTE with accelerators and if they're crushing it, why on earth would you not want to reward them? And I think the other piece that it misses is creating a culture of winning. This isn't about one person that just crushed it. But then when other people see, hey, this is a place where you can be successful that then draws other people and I don't know, I'll be honest, maybe I'm missing something. I don't get it, though.

Brian
Is there any better recruitment tool for salespeople than one rep who just blows it out?

Pouyan
And is happy, right? Like not only making money, but it's like, I'm making money, and I'm happy?

Brian
Yeah, instead of what we're seeing today is everybody jumped in every 12 to 18 months? And what do you get when you do that? Who wins in that? The rep doesn't win. The company doesn't win.

Pouyan
All right, Brian, we like to ask the same question to everyone that comes to the show here. So number one is what's your hype song? Whether it's about to go on that walk and drop some tips on the video or call the call that VP for 33rd time?

Brian
It's probably It's a Beautiful Day. By U2.

Ross
How about the opposite? How about your like recovery song after a ruinous day?

Brian
This one's been mine my whole life. You Will Survive.

Ross
Yeah, I mean, that's what I think a lot of SDRS need to know. That they will survive. Well, Brian, thank you for joining us. This was great. I look forward to seeing more of your content really quick. We always let people plug everything and anything they got. Where can people find you? What should they what should they buy now? What should they download?

Brian
Yeah, you can find me on LinkedIn, Brian G Burns. Podcast: Brutal Truth About Sales and Selling. Same thing on YouTube.

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